Gallery of prints for sale

Wednesday 28 February 2018

Heinrich Aldegrever’s engraving, “Charity”, 1552


Heinrich Aldegrever (c1502–1555/61)

 “Charity” or “Love of the neighbour” (L’amour du prochain), 1552, plate 6 from the series of 7 engravings, “Virtues and Vices” (BM) or “Seven Virtues” (Rijksmusem). Note that there is another engraving by Aldegrever titled by TIB as “Charity” from the same series but with the shortened title in French, “La charité” (TIB 16[8].122 [400]).

Engraving trimmed at the image borderline on fine laid paper lined with a support sheet.
Size: (sheet) 9.5 x 6.3 cm
Signed with monogram and dated on a tablet at lower left.
The two lines of Latin text below the image borderline have been trimmed off but would have shown: “Viribus inudiae soboles spoliatur Amori. / Quaem sequitur recta spesque fidesque via.”

TIB 16(8).118 (399) (Walter L Strauss & Robert A Koch [Eds.] 1980, “The Illustrated Bartsch”, vol. 16, p. 194); Bartsch VIII.399.118; New Hollstein German (Aldegrever) 122

The British Museum offers the following description of this print:
“Holding a child; with a lion on the escutcheon at right and a dog on the flag at left; from a series of whole-length female personifications of the virtues in frontal view with their respective attributes on banners and shields.” (http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=1509105&partId=1&searchText=aldegrever+charity&page=1)

Condition: a good but not magnificent impression that has been trimmed of its text box. The sheet has been laid onto a support sheet and there are some minor restorations that are so small that they are virtually invisible.

I am selling this original print from the Renaissance era by one of the major old masters for AU$364 (currently US$281.43/EUR230.72/GBP204.58 at the time of posting this listing). Postage for this print is extra and will be the actual/true cost of shipping.

If you are interested in purchasing this VERY small masterpiece of engraving, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.

This print has been sold


Oh my gosh!! … when I read the description of this print offered by the Rijksmuseum (see http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.30560) I was a little more than excited. The description begins appropriately: “Personification of charity. Woman with child on her left arm, in her right hand a banner with a picture of a dog.” But then—and this is a VERY big “BUT”—the description takes a trajectory that is off the planet: “Right above a coat of arms with the lioness blowing her dead boy into the air, on top of a lamb.” Goodness me! I needed to see that! … and I had no idea how a lioness “blowing her dead boy into the air” could EVER symbolise the warm-hearted sensitivities of kindness and agenda-less generosity that I understood underpinned the virtue of charity. Well I’ve decided that the curator must be looking at a different print or “Google translate” is equalling what the party animal “Siri” on my phone gives me when I ask questions. To be frank, the lion (I don’t think that it is a lioness as the beast has a mane) in the escutcheon is not blowing a boy in the air but it may be playing with one or two cubs. Going further, the sheep is above the lion rather than below it. Ahh well! I should mention at this point that there is an alternative title for this print, “Love the neighbour” or “Neighbourly love”. Again, however, I have an issue if the lioness shown in the escutcheon were to be “blowing her dead boy into the air, on top of a lamb.” This is all too silly but I still like the Rijksmuseum’s description of what may be found in this tiny of tiny prints.

The precise words in Dutch offered by the Rijksmuseum are: “Personificatie van de naastenliefde. Vrouw met kind op haar linkerarm, in haar rechterhand een vaandel met daarom een afbeelding van een hond. Rechtboven een wapenschild met de leeuwin die haar dode jongen lucht in blaast, bovenop een lam. Onder de voorstelling een tweeregelige tekst in het Latijn. Zesde prent uit een serie van zeven.” (http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.30560)







Tuesday 27 February 2018

Richard Parkes Bonington’s lithograph, “Brackline”, 1826


Richard Parkes Bonington (1802–1828)

“Brackline”, 1826, after a drawing (1824) by François Alexandre Pernot (1793–1865), published by Charles Gosselin (1792–1859) in “Vues pittoresques de l'Ecosse, d'après nature” (1826–28) showing views of  Scotland with accompanying text written by Amédée Pichot (1795–1877), printed by François le Villain (fl.1824–1835).

Lithograph in black ink on wove paper lined with a support sheet.
Size: (sheet) 24.5 x 34.8 cm; (image borderline) 17.1 x 24 cm
Lettered on plate below the image borderline: (left) “Lith. par Bonington, d'après les dessins de F.A.Pernot.”; (centre) “BRACKLINE”; (right) “Imp. Lith. de Villain."

There are at least two states of this print. The British Museum has a second state copy signified by non-italicised publication details (see BM no. 1861,0810.175) and the Yale Centre for British Art has a copy with italicised publication details (see http://collections.britishart.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3623048) the same as this impression. Accordingly, this impression and the one from Yale are either from the first state or after the second state.

Curtis 1939 36. (Atherton Curtis 1939, “Catalogue de l'oevre lithographié et gravé de RPB”, Paris)
See also Ernest Aglaüs Bouvenne 1873, “Catalogue de l'oeuvre gravé et lithographié de R.P. Bonington”, Paris, Jules Claye, p. 28 (this publication [in French] may be downloaded through archive.org: https://archive.org/details/cataloguedeloeuv00bouv)
The British Museum offers the following description of this print:
“A small waterfall gushes down between two rocks and runs towards the left of the image under a low hanging branch. 1826 Lithograph”

Condition: well-inked and well-printed impression in excellent condition (i.e. there are no tears, holes, folds, abrasions, stains or foxing, but there are very light handling marks at the lower edge). The lithograph is laid onto a support sheet of conservator’s fine archival/millennium quality washi paper. There is an ink collector's stamp and monogram that is visible through the tissue-thin support sheet (verso).

I am selling this small but graphically strong lithograph executed by one of great luminaries of 19th century watercolour—indeed so marvellous was he that even Delacroix when writing to Théophile Thoré in 1861 described Bonington’s artwork as “a type of diamond which flatters and ravishes the eye”—for AU$128 (currently US$99.70/EUR81.56/GBP71.74 at the time of this listing). Postage for this print is extra and will be the actual/true cost of shipping.

If you are interested in purchasing this beautifully preserved lithograph exemplifying the romantic spirit, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.

This print has been sold


When I was researching this print I found only one description of it which mentions the heron lightly scratched into the shadows at the lower left of the composition. This is a shame as I like the sketchy way the bird is treated. For me, the freely drawn lines suggest a peripheral impression of the bird, or rather an intuitive recognition of the bird lying slightly outside of the focus of the rest of the scene. I mention this tiny feature in the composition as it shows Bonington’s ability to merge the pictorial reality of what he observed and wished to portray with the reality that the image is just a graphic illusion.

Regarding Bonington’s creative play in making this lithograph, I should point out that that the artist, François Alexandre Pernot—whose drawing that this print is purportedly based upon—did not especially like Bonington’s prints. In fact, Bouvenne (1873) asserts (in translation) that “Mr. Pernot had little taste for Bonington lithographs and complained that in his first plans the artist allowed himself to go too much to the taste of the picturesque” (p. 7).







Philips Galle’s engraving, “Fishing with Drag Nets on the River Arno”, 1578


Philips Galle (aka Philippe Galle; Philippus Gallaeus) (1537–1612)

“Fishing with Drag Nets on the River Arno”, 1578, from the series of 43 unnumbered plates of hunting scenes dedicated to Cosimo de Medici, “Venationes Ferarum, Avium, Piscium” (aka “In quibus omne genus venationis, aucupij, piscatusque”), after Jan van der Straet (aka Joannes Stradanus) (1523–1605).

Note that I have posted another print by Galle from the same series that also shows men fishing on the River Arno: http://www.printsandprinciples.com/2017/08/philips-galles-engraving-fishing-with.html

Engraving on laid paper with margins (as published in the first edition of 1578) and lined with a support sheet.
Size: (sheet) 24.5 x 36.7 cm; (plate) 21.8 x 29.6 cm; (image borderline) 20.2 x 29.6 cm
Lettered on plate in Latin below the image borderline in two columns: “Sic per stagnantes divellunt retia ripas, / Impleat ut piscis textam de vimine nassam.”
State: i (of iii) Lifetime impression before the addition of the number, “98”, at lower-left below the image borderline. (See the British Museum for a copy of state ii: BM no. 1957,0413.247)

New Hollstein (Dutch & Flemish) 462-1 (Johannes Stradanus); New Hollstein (Dutch & Flemish) 560-1 (Philips Galle); Baroni Vannucci 1997 693.98 (Alessandra Baroni Vannucci 1997, “Jan van der Straet, detto Giovanni Stradano, flandrus pictor et inventor”, Milan, Jandi Sapi Editori)

The Rijksmuseum offers the following description of this print (trans.):
“In a river, fish are caught by a trawl. The print has a Latin caption and is part of a 43-part series about the hunt.” (http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.114998)

The British Museum offers the following description of this print from the later second state:
“Plate numbered 98, Fishing with Drag Nets on the River Arno; in the foreground, a river god holding a cornucopia is seated upon a lion, representing Florence; beside and beyond him fishermen men wade in the river with poles and nets; the city of Florence flanks the river to the left, with the dome of the Duomo visible “

Condition: Crisp, lifetime impression (see explanation above) laid onto a support sheet of conservator’s fine archival/millennium quality washi paper. There is a wormhole in the sheet at upper-left corner of the margin and a few handling marks in the margins towards the lower right corner, otherwise the sheet is in exceptional good condition for its age.

I am selling this rare, museum-quality engraving—executed only 37 years after Michelangelo completed the “Last Judgement” in the Sistine Chapel—for AU$256 (currently US$200.78/EUR162.96/GBP144.03 at the time of this listing). Postage for this print is extra and will be the actual/true cost of shipping.

If you are interested in purchasing this important print with its fascinating glimpse at the hat fashion for fishermen in the 16th century, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.

This print has been sold


In my previous discussion about Galle’s engraving also featuring men fishing on the river Arno in Florence—note the dome of the Duomo at the upper left—I drew attention to Galle’s approach to rendering the fishermen. More specifically, the way that he darkens the background around the side of the figures that is in light and lightens the tone of the background on the side of the figures that is in shadow; see, for example, how Galle has darkened the background next to the left shoulder of the standing figure on the right to accentuate, by tonal contrast, the light falling on his shoulder and lightened the background next to his bottom to accentuate the shadows in that region.
  
For this discussion I thought I might focus on the water cascading over the weir wall in the middle distance. What I find interesting about Galle’s approach to representing this cascade is that he has cleverly suggested the directional flow of the water current above the weir by using a pattern of white lines (i.e. gaps between marks) in the horizontal lines describing the surface plane of the water and, importantly, showed the water depth in the cascade with tiny strokes on the upper edge of the submerged weir wall. Note also how Galle has given three-dimensional modelling to the light and shade on the cascading water. Fascinating!







Monday 26 February 2018

Jan Luyken’s engraving, “The Plague of Locusts”, 1700


Jan Luyken (Jan Luiken; Jan Luycken; Jan Loiken) (1649–1712)

“The Plague of Locusts”, 1700, illustration for “Exodus” 10:13-15, published by David and Willem Goeree (1635–1711) in “Mosaize Historie der Hebreeuwse Kerke” (Mosaical History of the Hebrew Church).

Engraving on laid paper with margins as published and lined with a conservator’s support sheet.
Size: (sheet) 32.3 x 38.9 cm; (plate) 28.7 x 36.7 cm; (image borderline) 27.5 x 35.8 cm
Lettered above the image borderline: (right) “3 Deel P. 160.”
Lettered below the image borderline: “Moses zyn hand over Egipten uit-strekkende, doet Godt met eenen Ooftenwind, Sprinkhanen over heel het land opkomen; die al het overgelaten kruyd en boomgewas af-eten. Exod.10:13.14.15”

Condition: richly inked, crisp, museum quality (lifetime) impression in near faultless condition with margins as published and laid onto an archival support sheet.

I am selling this large and detailed engraving showing a rare scene of a locust plague for AU$136 (currently US$106.88/EUR86.62/GBP76.14 at the time of this listing). Postage for this print is extra and will be the actual/true cost of shipping.

If you are interested in purchasing this visually arresting engraving that can sustain serious scrutiny, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.

This print has been sold


From my very limited understanding of the ancient/Old Testament book, “Exodus”, that describes the plague of locusts shown here, this was the eighth plague (of ten) prophesied by Moses as a  “prompt” for the pharaoh, Ramses II (1279-1213 BCE), to release the Jews from slavery and to allow them to leave Egypt. (I realise that my account is probably flawed so please accept my apology if this is the case.)

What I like about this illustration is that Luyken has found the perfect way of showing the distress caused by the locusts (e.g. lots of commotion with people and animals running amok) and ways that the locals dealt with the little horrors (e.g. by drowning, smothering, netting, hitting, burning and stomping on them). Of special interest to me is the way that Luyken has visually “explained” that the tiny specks in the distance are actually locusts/grasshoppers by giving the viewer close up views of them in the immediate foreground. So clever! I must say, however, that the locusts in the foreground seem to be from more than the Acrididae family of grasshopper … but I am not entomologist so I really don’t know.

For those interested in text below the illustration, the following verses from “Exodus” 10:13-15 (King James Version) explains everything:

13 “And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the Lord brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts.”
14 “And the locust went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.”
15 “For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.”







Sunday 25 February 2018

Wenceslaus Hollar’s etching, “Wide cup with ornamental stem”, 1646


Wenceslaus Hollar (aka Wenzel Hollar; Václav Hollar) (1607–1677)

“Wide cup with ornamental stem”, 1646, from a suite of ten plates of ornamental designs after Hans Holbein the Younger (1497/8–1543) (New Hollstein [Hollar] 824–33) in the collection of the Earl of Arundel, Antwerp.

Note: the V&A advises: “The original Holbein drawings on which Hollar based his etchings, from the Arundel Collection, are now lost” (http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O625128/a-wide-cup-on-ball-etching-holbein-hans-ii/)

Etching on fine laid paper trimmed well within the image borderline on the left and lower edges and re-margined with a support sheet.
Size: (re-margined support sheet) 33.7 x 28.1 cm; (unevenly trimmed sheet) 16.4 x 12.4 cm
Inscribed on plate at lower left: “HHolbein delin: WHollar fecit, 1646 / ex Collectione Arundeliana,”

Pennington 1982 2629 (Richard Pennington 1982, “A descriptive catalogue of the etched work of Wenceslaus Hollar”, Cambridge, p. 389); New Hollstein (German) 828 (Hollar)

The British Museum offers the following description of this print:
“Wide cup with ornamental stem, featuring two grotesque heads with goat's horns, and lid with female figure holding a blank shield; after Hans Holbein. 1646 Etching”
The British Museum also holds another very similar etching of a cup by Hollar with variations to the ornamentation such as the addition of ball feet (among other features): http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3580512&partId=1&searchText=hollar+1646&page=1

Condition: excellent impression in very good condition (i.e. there are no tears, holes, folds, abrasions, stains, foxing or signs of handling), but trimmed unevenly with significant losses on the left and lower edge and re-margined on an archival support sheet.

I am selling this trimmed jewel of an etching by one of the most famous of all 17th century  etchers for AU$196 (currently US$153.81/EUR125.08/GBP110.09 at the time of this listing). Postage for this print is extra and will be the actual/true cost of shipping.

If you are interested in purchasing this technically superb print, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.

This print has been sold


Although this etching is exceptionally beautiful and shows Hollar’s virtuosity with the etching needle, especially in his subtle tonal gradations made with only horizontal strokes, one needs to see what I believe is Hollar’s true tour de force in rendering ornamental vessels: “The Large Chalice” (aka “Design for a Large Chalice”) (https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/57661/design-large-chalice).

When I look at this amazing print, I have to remind myself that the delicate line-work is crafted by etching rather than by engraving. The jolt of reminding myself helps me to appreciate how Hollar had such a profound impact on printmaking in the 17th century. This is especially true regarding his affect on English printmakers, as in England (where Hollar ultimately lived) the art of etching was a virtually unexplored discipline that he was able to make his own. For an insightful account of Hollar's impact, see Richard T Godfrey's (1994) “Wenceslaus Hollar: A Bohemian Art in England”, Yale University Press, p. 10).







Saturday 24 February 2018

Lambert Suavius’ engraving, “St Matthias”, 1545-48


Lambert Suavius (aka Lambert Zutman; Zoetman Lambert; Lambert Le Doux) (c1510–1567)

“St Matthias”, 1545-48, from the series of 14 plates, “Christ, the Apostles and St Paul.”

The Curator of the British Museum offers the following insights regarding the series which this print features: “… from a series of fourteen plates showing Christ and the apostles and St Paul (Hollstein 9-22). Twelve of these plates are numbered 1–12; the plates with St Matthias and St Thomas are not.”

Engraving on heavy laid paper trimmed with narrow margins around the platemark.
Size: (sheet) 20 x 8.8 cm; (plate) 19.8 x 8.5 cm
State i (of i)  This impression is likely to be from an edition published in the late 1600s or early 1700s.

Hollstein Dutch 21 (Dieuwke de Hoop Scheffer & K.G. Boon [comp.] George S. Keyes [ed.] 1984, “Dutch and Flemish etchings, engravings and woodcuts ca. 1450–1700: Louis Spirinx to M. Suys”, vol. 28, Blaricum, Van Gendt, p. 174, cat. no. 21)

The Rijksmuseum offers the following description of this print: “The apostle Mattias standing by a column in a room. He supports a long staff with both hands.”
The Philadelphia Museum of Art offers a description of this print: http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/19984.html?mulR=254821300|21
See another other examples from the same series at RE Lewis and Daughter: http://www.relewis.com/SuaviusJohn.html

Condition: crisp and well-printed museum-quality impression in excellent condition (i.e. there are no tears, holes, folds, abrasions, stains, foxing or signs of handling) trimmed close to the plate mark.

I am selling this marvellous engraving that (to my eye) follows in the tradition of Andrea Mantegna (1431–1506)—in terms low-horizon monumentality and referencing the antique—and certainly shows significant borrowings from Giulio Campagnola (1482–1515)—viz. the use of stippling to render light and shade—for AU$194 (currently US$152.24/EUR123.80/GBP108.97 at the time of this listing). Postage for this print is extra and will be the actual/true cost of shipping.

If you are interested in purchasing this marvellously strong image with its curious amalgam of low and high viewpoints, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.


Before I did my research on this print, I must confess that I had only heard of St Matthias but I certainly did not know that he was one of the twelve apostles. After as quick Google, I soon understood why: he was nominated by a lots cast by Christ’s disciples (not in person by Christ) to be a replacement for Judas. In short he was simply a substitute without “showing himself worthy of becoming an apostle” (Clement of Alexandria in “Stromateis” vi.13).

There are several things that I find fascinating with this print. The first is that Suavius has portrayed the saint’s feet from the worm’s eye viewpoint in which I can see a little below the saint’s toes AND the artist has cleverly made a transition so that I also look more or less directly at the saint’s shoulder. The second thing that I find very interesting is that Suavius has employed the stippling technique (i.e. the use of dots and tiny dashes to render light and shade) in engraving that had only been used for the first time a few years earlier by Giulio Campagnola. The third and final point that I wish to draw attention to is the setting for the saint in a classical ruin. Although this may seem to be a minor feature to ponder, if one considers that Suavius’ brother-in-law and teacher was Lambert Lombard and Lombard adhered to the view that “it was better to imitate a single statue than all the work of the moderns” (see Stephen J Campbell & Jeremie Koering [eds.] 2016, “Andrea Mantegna: Making Art”,  John Wiley & Sons, p. 158)—here we are talking about Renaissance era “moderns”—then the antique setting and the artist’s approach to treating the saint as if he were a monumental sculpture has some meaningful resonance. 






Friday 23 February 2018

Daniel Hopfer’s etching, “Pharisees and clerics roaming the land to gather followers”, panel 3 from “The Seven Woes”, c1520


Daniel Hopfer (1471–1536)

“Pharisees and clerics roaming the land to gather followers” (British Museum’s descriptive title, see BM no. 2004,U.49), c1520, panel 3 (upper-right of centre) of 8 panels, from the large composite etching, “The Seven Woes” or “Matthew 23.13ff” (Bartsch title) (aka “Les vices que Jésus Christ reproche aux scribes et aux pharisiens …” [The vices that Jesus Christ reproaches the scribes and the Pharisees …]), c1520, published by David Funck (fl1682–1709) at Nuremberg in the 17th century in “Opera Hopferiana.”

Iron etching on heavy laid paper trimmed with a small margin around the borderline and stamped in ink verso with a collector’s monogram.
Size: (sheet) 13.6 x 9.6 cm; (image borderline) 12.8 x 9 cm
Signed on plate below image borderline with trimmed monogram at lower left and inscribed within the image borderline with the corresponding passage from Matthew 23.

Regarding the publication of the Hopfer’s etchings, Robert A Koch (1981) in Vol. 7 of TIB advises in his editor’s note: “In the 17th century a Nuremberg publisher named David Funck numbered 230 of [… Hopfer’s] plates and issued a volume entitled ‘Opera Hopferiana.’ In 1802 a publisher named C. Wilhelm Silberberg in Frankfurt-am-Main reissued 92 plates with the Funck numbers in a volume which he also entitled ‘Opera Hopferiana.’ These plates were printed on unnumbered pages of a heavy wove paper.” Mindful of the two editions, as this impression is on wove paper it is from Funck's 17th century edition.

Hollstein 34.I; Bartsch (1803) VIII.481.31; TIB (1981) 17.31; Eyssen 32

The British Museum offers the following description of the composite print in which this panel features:
“The seven woes; eight illustrations to Mathew 23, 13-31; with Christ showing the apostles the misdeeds of the pharisees, scribes and contemporary clerics. Etching”
  
Condition: richly inked and crisp impression trimmed with margins near the image borderline in faultless condition (i.e. there are no tears, holes, folds, abrasions, stains, foxing or signs of handling). There is an ink collector’s stamp verso.

I am selling this panel from a larger composite etching of eight panels by the first artist to use etching for prints on paper, for the total cost of AU$334 (currently US$261.53/EUR212.34/GBP187.13 at the time of posting this) including postage and handling to anywhere in the world.

If you are interested in purchasing this important old-master print, please contact me (oz_jim@printsandprinciples.com) and I will send you a PayPal invoice to make the payment easy.


This print has been sold


This panel is one of the eight panels of the composite etching “seven woes” (i.e. vices) that Christ reproached the “scribes and the Pharisees” in his teachings. The fact that there are eight panels rather than seven is an inconvenient truth in that there is inconsistency in the numbers of woes cited in the gospels (viz. Matthew has eight woes—Mathew 23, verses 13 to 16, 23, 25, 27 and 29—and these are illustrated in the composite print; Luke has only six woes).

For those who may not be acquainted with the woes that Christ identified in his criticism of hypocrisy and perjury, the following verses may be helpful.

Matt. 23:13 (the first woe) “They taught about God but did not love God …”

Matt. 23.15 (the third woe—illustrated by this print) “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”

Matt. 23:25–26 (the sixth woe and my favourite) “They presented an appearance of being ‘clean’ (self-restrained, not involved in carnal matters), yet they were dirty inside: they seethed with hidden worldly desires, carnality. They were full of greed and self-indulgence.”

(Note that there is a very good chance that I have given the wrong “woe” as the third one and my apologies if this is the case.)